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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIt is not an act of loyalty to quash conversations about our own party's role in getting to where we are today.
Last edited Tue Feb 17, 2026, 09:33 AM - Edit history (1)
It is an act of self-destruction.
In order to move forward, we need to examine and admit our mistakes. If we don't, when we regain power, our response to this rolling disaster will be as flawed and ineffective as it was in the past.
I love my country. I love my party. Because of that, I won't be a brainless cheerleader, I won't mindlessly spout any version of "my party, right or wrong."
Obviously we have not been effective in preventing the mess we find ourselves in. We have made mistakes. We need to face that so we can avoid those mistakes in the future. And asking how to respond when republicans ask difficult questions is not criticizing Democrats.
Efforts to prevent those conversations are disloyal to our principles.
ETA: I'm not talking about violating the TOS. I'm talking about conversations where a poster asks, "Why did we do thing X, did it hurt us, and how can we do differently in the future?" That is not bashing Democrats. That's what adults do when they find themselves in a bad situation.
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quaint
(4,849 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 17, 2026, 01:22 PM - Edit history (1)
Apologies.
I think posting rules might be more relaxed.
EarlG
(23,538 posts)But remember, for the most part you all are the ones responsible for enforcing those rules. That’s why The Way Forward forum provides a reminder that there is an awful lot of wiggle room between “bashing” and “constructive criticism” and people are going to have different ideas on where those lines should be drawn. It also provides a common sense reminder about how to avoid getting posts removed.
This is the Statement of Purpose for The Way Forward forum:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=about&forum=1324
snot
(11,611 posts)this seems to focus on allowing discussion of "strategy" and "tactics" (though it also mentions "the future of the party," which I find pretty vague, given the context). Are we supposed to not discuss substantive matters, and just stick to cheerleading and recruiting?
What about Dem policy, not in the "future," but now? Can we urge a return to the policies that we Dems used to stand for, including higher taxes on the rich, tighter regulation on Wall St., enforcement of anti-trust law, tighter restrictions on the consolidation of media ownership, stronger labor protections, humane levels of support for those who can't support themselves, etc.? (Then there are also such civil rights as free speech and privacy, which Dems have lately seemed to care about only when it's the other side that's infringing them.)
Imho, our gradual but steady betrayal of these policies helped pave the way for Trump to win by co-opting Bernie's language and promising to improve the lot of workers (not that Trump's actually delivered).
I worry about getting kicked off DU for saying this.
EarlG
(23,538 posts)“Discuss the future of the party” does not mean, “don’t discuss Dem policy now, discuss it in the future.” The forum we’re talking about is called “The Way Forward.” It’s about what needs to be done now to make the party better in the future.
As for whether you’re permitted on DU to advocate for completely standard Democratic priorities like “tax the rich,” “regulate Wall Street,” and, “strengthen the social safety net,” obviously such things have never been forbidden on DU, and never will be.
As for, “Are we not supposed to discuss substantive matters,” I don’t think you’ll find a post anywhere by me, or any part of the DU ToS, or any other official DU page that implies such a thing. Yes, we have special rules about not crapping on Democratic nominees during General Election season, but we’re not in General Election season now, and we won’t be until the summer of 2028.
As for getting kicked off of DU, that is only going to happen if enough of your posts get removed by Jury. Once again, here are tips on how to avoid that, from the Statement of Purpose of The Way Forward forum:
Also please note that by encouraging civility and discouraging rude behavior, that text is a framework intended to encourage and facilitate substantive discussion, not clamp down on it.
creeksneakers2
(7,960 posts)Rather than blaming moderates for not having everything you want.
._.
(1,786 posts)It is tricky because the rules on DU are so tight about saying anything even remotely negative about Democrats. It's just what it is.
gab13by13
(31,757 posts)would be a No No here for some.
lapucelle
(20,985 posts)who got us to this place, beginning with the 2000 presidential election all the way to 2024 when "punishing Democrats" was more important than voting for harm reduction for marginalized people in both the US and abroad.
gab13by13
(31,757 posts)
Farmer-Rick
(12,552 posts)But we can all pretend otherwise because that's so much easier than actually fixing a terribly broken voting system.
Where's the Carter Center's impartial monitoring when you really need them? Oh that's right they are in Venezuela.
iemanja
(57,665 posts)Denying that we have any improvements to make by pretending we didn’t lose. It’s no different than Trump claiming he won the 2020 election. The pre-election polls were consistent with the outcome. And Democratic counties and states did not conspire with a candidate, out of office with no governing power, to throw the election to Republicans.
I know you don’t agree. I know you don’t think the party needs to do anything to improve its electoral prospects, but I do because I actually want to win. Your argument discourages people from voting because it says there is no point. It is an argument that asserts the people are powerless to affect their government. We in Minneapolis proved that to be false. We do so not only through protests but also through the ballot box.
yellow dahlia
(5,331 posts)
JustAnotherGen
(37,835 posts)Leftists and BOTS on Social Media are posting threats that if we don't vote correctly in 2028 they won't vote.
It's almost like they don't know the name of a single member of their school board or town/city council and that there are 2 years of elections where they could be building traction for their candidates now.
And when you ask them WHO they want - they never have a name.
TBF
(36,136 posts)on my two hands over the past 2 decades. Our "left" here - folks who actually subscribe to the socialist and communist parties that do exist - are so decimated. Nothing like the left that you see in Europe for example.
Seriously, it is just another smear tactic tptb are using to divide us. Stop fighting other liberals/left of various types and turn that energy against the GOP.
JustAnotherGen
(37,835 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 17, 2026, 01:15 PM - Edit history (1)
I serve with two on my local borough Council. Actual elected officials that couldn't get the WFP endorsement. That far left.
As well - when I look at someone like Hassan Piker and what he's saying?
I can't be in community with anyone like that.
TBF
(36,136 posts)That's the thing that you really need to keep your eye on.
Ultimately it comes down to 2 in the election. Kamala Harris would not have been my choice in a primary versus some of the other likely candidates, but it didn't matter. She was our candidate and far superior to Donald Trump. So I not only voted for her, I donated a lot (for me). That's what it comes down to, whether we like it or not.
JustAnotherGen
(37,835 posts)If you want Black women to stop resting and get in on the bare knuckled fighting - you have to engage us.
Sorry - not sorry. Until a few weeks ago I was a long time Democratic Committee Member - long enough to have flipped the NJ 7th from R to Malinowski in 2018. I'm a lot more savvy than your post indicates. I've also seen first hand the side-lining of Black women and our issues.
We've been taken for granted - so now we demand concessions from white Americans on the Left. We aren't going back to the status quo. As well, what the rest of America is going through now? We did from 1865 to 1965. It's not that hard. Everyone is going to have to toughen up.
I don't believe the end of the Magapub/CSA is a political solution. Take from that what you will. Eventually - white Americans are going to take up arms against each other. It may be small skirmishes - it may be across state lines.
This situation we are in is eerily reminiscent of the lead up to the Revolutionary (first Civil) War. The difference now? I won't accept a union at the expense of those of us here since 1619.
TBF
(36,136 posts)I think you are politically far more savvy than I am - sounds like you've run for office and I've never done that. The most I've gotten involved is sending donations, doing the phone calls, and walking door to door.
JustAnotherGen
(37,835 posts)I know longer believe there is a Republican Party - it is the Magapub Party.
They are the direct descendants of the CSA - - Confederate States of America which were never punished, and got everything handed back to them on a silver platter. They won the peace, got America to uphold white supremacy - lost it in 1964 and 1965 . . . Then went underground so they could rise again between 2015 and 2025.
Yes, currently serving in Office and Committee Member. I also interned then worked for a congresswoman a lifetime ago.
The Democratic Committees in NJ are elected at the Local Level by Precinct - and then we select our State Party Leaders in the County.
In 2018 - my borough council was all red. Then in 2017 and 2018 we started flipping it. In my election in 2023 was when we went all blue. We are blue dot in a deeply red vulgarian backwards county. Or so I thought.
The old GOP would get crossovers from the Libertarians and Constitutional Party . . . Not anymore. They is pissed.
TBF
(36,136 posts)my parents were in unions - so that's my frame of reference - I view everything through an economic lens. Labor used to be the democratic base, but I'm learning its far more complicated now. Thank you for the info and it certainly makes sense. I see a lot of confederate flags in Texas even today. I will be watching for more of your posts!
Jack Valentino
(4,704 posts)
JustAnotherGen
(37,835 posts)PeaceWave
(2,918 posts)JustAnotherGen
(37,835 posts)Map Shows States Where Support for Seceding from US is Rising
Why It Matters
Rising support for secession in some states may signal a deeper erosion of national cohesion at a time when political polarization has risen. Shifts since 2024 reflect changes in the federal government. As President Donald Trump returned to office, support for secession in several Democratic states has risen, but in more conservative states, there has been a decline in support for seceding from the U.S.
https://www.nj.com/politics/2026/02/a-new-survey-shows-how-many-americans-support-seceding-from-us-where-does-nj-stand.html
There's something going on in NJ - and I think the numbers are not accurately reflected. My biggest new pick-ups in support seem to be from Libertarians and the Constitution Party. It's chilling to me as a Democratic. These 'righties' are sick and tired of the Magapubs and they would rather sacrifice core beliefs to vote for people who would prefer to go it alone.
This election year is really going to be very weird in NJ. Never did I ever believe a Libertarian would knock on my door, ask me to run again, and volunteer for my campaign.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)But I think even you and I can agree that our opposition will not change and will not stop doing those things we abhor.
So, by extension, your comment says there is nothing we can or should do to change our situation. We must simply stew in it and stew in our anger at those who are not with us and who will not change.
I fundamentally disagree. We HAVE made mistakes. We HAVE misjudged the situation. There ARE things we can do. There ARE ways to improve our outcomes.
And again, we know they won't change. So OUR improving our game is our only hope of getting out of this mess.
lapucelle
(20,985 posts)I recommend that everyone do the same. This includes working hard to elect Democrats who can win in purple and red-leaning districts. Hopefully, by this point, purists finally understand the power of holding statehouses and majorities in Congress.
So much for my comment "by extension" saying there is nothing we can or should do to change our situation.
Recognize local Democrats who can win and work hard to elect them.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)So now what?
"Hopefully our opposition will no longer be our opposition because I work really hard" doesn't fill me with hope of success.
lapucelle
(20,985 posts)that specifically target depressing the vote of folks more likely to vote for Democrats.
As for the contention that "we all here work hard to elect Democrats", I'm wary of categorical statements. We flipped two Congressional seats in my county blue in 2024 and have been working ever since to ensure that they remain blue in 2026.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)lapucelle
(20,985 posts)Secondly, I don't accept the blanket "definition". If there were no opposition narratives, there would be no need for rules against them.
Cirsium
(3,717 posts)Work harder to shut down purists - AKA those with whom you don't agree?
lapucelle
(20,985 posts)
Cirsium
(3,717 posts)It is a very odd use of the word. It is used frequently here and of course it means people who hold certain opinions. Ergo, shutting down purists is a matter if suppressing the opinions of those with whom one disagrees. It is a smear against fellow Democrats, too, ironically, because those attacking "purists" are themselves attacking other Democrats.
lapucelle
(20,985 posts)your conclusion does not follow from your premises.
Cirsium
(3,717 posts) Ilikepurple
(508 posts)Cirsium’s argument
1. Democratic purists should be shut down
2. Those Democrats with whom Lapucelle disagrees are Democratic purists
3. Therefore, those Democrats with whom Lapucelle disagrees should be shut down.
Simple syllogism. There definitely seems to be an argument there. The use of “ergo” is not random and seems appropriate. The argument seems valid. Whether it is sound or not is still in question. If you want to stay in the space of reason, you need to argue against the truth of either premise which I would think would better reveal your opinions.
Wave coffee donut wave
lapucelle
(20,985 posts)is a valiant effort, but the fact that the new argument relies on equivocation pretty much proves my point.
JustAnotherGen
(37,835 posts)It's practical.
My purist statement: I won't vote for anyone in a primary that preaches unity with magapub voters.There's no offramp with me for those people. I want policies that crush their souls and offers zero opportunity for *both sides*. They are the evil being inflicted on America.
I will vote for the nominee.
I'm id'ing now who I think will be most punitive and support them so they win the primary.
The party base is cruel now. We've never been this cruel. Its always been harm.reduction. Now my cruelty is the point.
Cirsium
(3,717 posts)Well said.
Just_Vote_Dem
(3,582 posts)We should respond with an alternative view.
choie
(6,818 posts)Just like in therapy, we had to take responsibility for our mistakes or else we won’t grown and improve.
JustAnotherGen
(37,835 posts)One I see? Allowing life long independents to intrude in our primaries.
Another? We don't leverage fear of the other and what they will do to you. It got people (under 30) in nieces and nephews in NJ to vote last November.
Black, Latino/a. We had to tell my one niece in law (American of Honduran immigrant parents) about the forced sterilization of Puerto Rica, Black, and Indigenous women. It triggered her to go vote. She has three daughters - black, Latina with indigenous heritage.
I don't expect the dominant culture voters on the left to be susceptible to that. I.do expect people like me to leverage the Magapub "Those people want to destroy your children like they've always done".
See - fear works.
Chemical Bill
(3,141 posts)I am in favor of ranked choice voting, with no primaries.
flashman13
(2,235 posts)If you are not willing to understand that mistakes on the part of the DNC is what elected Trump, you are part of the problem. The DNC short circuited the entire primary process in 2024. The constant drum beat that Joe Biden was a great President and was fully capable of being even greater in a second term did not serve the best interests of the party. Outside of party stalwarts, the American public didn't believe he was capable. By the time of the debate debacle, it was too late to right the ship. Kamala Harris was a great candidate and would have been a great President, but in her abbreviated campaign she could not overcome the hangover of those early mistakes.
Take a look at all of the elections, both local and national, that were held in 2025. Across the board the Repugs got their buns kicked. At the grass roots level there is wide support for Democratic candidates and policies. But that doesn't necessarily translate to the upper echelons of the party. The message is clear. The American people want major changes to the system and the election of Democrats in 2025 point the way. Those changes are not going to happen until the younger members of the party take the leadership positions that they deserve. Obama said that very clearly in his recent interview. Demanding that that happen is not disloyalty. It is the recognition of the completely new political environment.
I'm looking forward to the up coming primaries. We are going to find out who can get the job done and who can't. We are going to find out who the people want rather than who the old guard wants.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)many of the names coming to the fore have a new approach grounded in understanding just how evil our opposition is. And just how hard we have to fight it.
I don't forget that, with the past two shutdown attempts, the vast majority of Democrats held fast.
PeaceWave
(2,918 posts)
leftstreet
(39,697 posts)
Chemical Bill
(3,141 posts)I was very impressed with all that he accomplished. I was not terribly distraught with his debate performance, because I saw the debate performance of his opponent. I was ready to vote for the primary winner.
OTOH, I have been angry about the Republican control of the corporate media for quite some time. They beat the drum of "Sleepy Joe". They let Trump lie without comment. They pretended that the grifter was reasonable. Seriously, President Biden looked tired, TSF looked dangerously crazy. President Biden ate McCarthy's lunch in budget negotiations. President Biden passed an infrastructure bill, and a climate bill, even with Manchin and Sinema. Even with the media acting like Republicans were not so bad....
Hey, I remember what Republicans and the media did to Max Cleland.
KPN
(17,235 posts)
SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)someone would come to a forum who's purpose is to support democrats and attack democrats instead. And then lecture the rest of us as if they are morally superior for doing so.
FoxNewsSucks
(11,605 posts)Great example.
The OP is 1000% correct. It was NOT AN ATTACK.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)They are the enemy, not democrats.
FoxNewsSucks
(11,605 posts)I don't know why anyone would imply such a stupid and wrong thing.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)Have a nice day!
CrispyQ
(40,853 posts)Things would never have gotten this bad if we'd been a true opposition party & we should examine that, cuz more of the same won't get us out of this.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)and Green party voters who decided their purity tests for democrats were more important to them than stopping Republicans.
Ilikepurple
(508 posts)I fail to see how this engages FoxNewSucks reply rather than restating your view? As such, I’ll have to assume we’re being lectured here?
SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)Cirsium
(3,717 posts)You are attacking fellow Democrats with that post.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)
MorbidButterflyTat
(4,339 posts)and snark.
Not my idea of an adult conversation.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)TBF
(36,136 posts)Stop attacking everyone who doesn't swear a party oath. Your post is pure strawman, and the last thing we need right now.
Jose Garcia
(3,458 posts)And if voters do choose the Democratic candidates, the performance of those candidates as officeholders can have a positive or negative effect on future candidates.
lapucelle
(20,985 posts)Anyone who is unhappy with their Democratic governor, two Democratic senators, and one Democratic congressperson's performance should make their grievances known to their elected representatives by contacting them.
Anyone who does not have a Democratic governor, two Democratic senators, and/or a Democratic member of Congress has some work ahead of them. Volunteer.
Cha
(317,903 posts)all about those who want to defeat the Dem party who aren't of the PEDO Fascist wing.
I've watched since Pres Obama was in Office and what happened at the midterms to "Treach him a Lesson.." 
..and we eventually ended up with the Traitor in 2016. How did that work out for those who love our Country?
Dems are Winning Races all across the Country now and Overperforming.. that tells me a whole hellava lot. . For one thing So many who Fell hard for Traitor's LIES are Now seeing it For What It Is. 
Adn, of course, the 3rd party who didn't give a shit About the SCOTUS in 2016. Obviously Not going to let that Pesky detail get in their Own Self Absorbed way. 
gab13by13
(31,757 posts)it needed to be said.
A lot of loyal Democrats were spanked for wanting Democrats to fight harder.
Last week I listened to Jason Crow say, (paraphrasing) the Democrats are in two camps, those who want to wait Trump out and those who are courageous and want to fight now.
Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie are the 2 faces leading the charge to release the Epstein files. Ro Khanna isn't even the ranking Democrat on the Oversight committee.
The Senate needs to stay strong in stopping funding for ICE. IMO the demands are even too weak. I would make the demand that the evidence in the Good/Pretti killings be turned over to local law enforcement before a nickel more is given to ICE.
PatrickforB
(15,388 posts)FoxNewsSucks
(11,605 posts)Floyd R. Turbo
(32,551 posts)
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)the past and seeing what the ramifications of our actions were so we can do differently in the future where we need to. THAT does nothing against the DU rules, but it seems to be too much for some of our friends to tolerate.
gab13by13
(31,757 posts)Politics take care of themselves when our Reps are seen out in the streets with the protesters or on picket lines or trying to access concentration camps.
I would even have Democrats consider nominating a Republican to run for president in 2028 - Miles Taylor. He isn't about politics, he is about fighting. He speaks with fire and brimstone every time I hear him on TV. We end up debating whether we should nominate a moderate or a progressive, we should nominate the person who fights the hardest.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)
karynnj
(60,848 posts)nothing about his position on most issues. We know he was early to speak against Trump, but so was the far better known Liz Cheney. We can admire Cheney 's principles, but disagree o almost every issue. She is a conservative Republican. On social media, Bill Kristol, long time neocon conservative is also starkly anti Trump, but likely still believes many things he advocated for in the Bush/Cheney years.
Another example is George Conway running for the solid blue seat currently held by Nadler. He was a long term conservative lawyer. Our agreement is that he is solidly against Trump.
I don't think we should vote for any of these conservative/neocons in OUR primaries. While they have rejected what their party is now, there is no reason to think they agree with any of our values on issues where the 2 parties fundamentally disagree.
gab13by13
(31,757 posts)you brought politics into it, Miles Taylor is not into politics.
Have you ever listened to him on cable news? He attacks Krasnov fiercely, he has had to pay for added security because of death threats, Krasnov fired him days before he was eligible for his pension.
I want a fighter as president and from what I hear from him he will hold the billionaires accountable.
MadameButterfly
(3,908 posts)he's into politics. If he runs for office he'll have to take a position on every political issue.
He's not the only one with good reason to be mad at Trump.
MichMan
(16,929 posts)Didn't age well did it?
FoxNewsSucks
(11,605 posts)just that better background checks might be needed.
karynnj
(60,848 posts)I also remember when Anthony Weiner and Alan Grayson were very popular here.
MadameButterfly
(3,908 posts)oppose Trump, I see no reason, if we survive all this and actually have an election again, that we should hand power back over to Republicans. There should be overwhelming enthusiasm for the Democrats in coming elections and we have a lot of work to do.
These Consevatives who have just seen the light helped get us to this place and were very late coming around. That doesn't bode well for their future decisions.
The only time we should consider these recent converts is in districts where we're unlikely to elect a real Democrat.
I agree with choosing fighters, but fighters can be found among Democrats.
Skittles
(170,431 posts)FUCK THAT, I don't care WHO it is 
yellow dahlia
(5,331 posts)just like that other group.
JustAnotherGen
(37,835 posts)You'll see my thoughts on this. No one wants to hear the core base's thoughts.
With the way this country is going - there might not be any of the base alive in 2 years. Let's be clear -we've always been the end game for the Heritage Foundation. If every Black Woman, Man and Child were dead -
The Magapubs would be at their happiest. That way they can have Medicare for all and a living wage. As long as we aren't part of the equation . . .
gab13by13
(31,757 posts)AI will take care of the billionaires.
Ping Tung
(4,284 posts)lapucelle
(20,985 posts) Ping Tung
(4,284 posts)I've been a registered Democrat since 1965 but I'm not married to it and my vote is my own. it is not owned by any party. or dogma.
lapucelle
(20,985 posts)for perceived ideological sins, even when they run the risk of helping to elect Donald Trump.
In addition to owning their votes, they also own the Roberts Court, Justices Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Cony Barrett, and the gutting of food and environmental safety regulations, the demise of USAID, and the establishment of a masked police force that kills Americans in the street with impunity.
There's nothing wrong with calling out the folks who have promulgated this disaster for the last quarter of a century.
Just_Vote_Dem
(3,582 posts)Occasionally I will see people complain about our lack of response to something, but it's only because MSM -somehow-"just happens" to overlook our response and thus people think we had nothing to say about the latest Repub outrage 
Ping Tung
(4,284 posts)repugnant policies/bills in the legislative branch.
Candidates are obligated to convince voters to vote for them by appealing to them rather than their opponents. If they fail to do that the loss is on them not the voters.
Johnny2X2X
(23,898 posts)This is DU, the rules of DU are clear when you sign up for DU. We support Democrats, and while some constructive criticism is allowed, this isn't the place to rip on Dems.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)Asking "Why did we do thing X and did it hurt us and what can we do differently in the future?" is not ripping Dems.
FoxNewsSucks
(11,605 posts)mock tRumphumpers for being lockstep-marching sheep, and like those sheep, they'll never see the hypocrisy or irony.
JustAnotherGen
(37,835 posts)For the racist little snots. They knew what they were doing and why.
yellow dahlia
(5,331 posts)If we donate money - we have a right to suggest improvements.
If we elect people to positions in Congress, we have a right to expect them to represent us.
Bettie
(19,498 posts)done us any favors in recent years.
They do, however, drain the coffers very efficiently
I hope that eventually, we can get Citizens United overturned, because that was when things started moving to the level of toxic we're at now.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)Bettie
(19,498 posts)would be a return to enforcement of anti-trust laws.
Media consolidation it is becoming worse as Ellison tries to buy literally everything...currently, there is very little media that isn't owned by the right wing. Wait, no, it is almost all owned by the FAR right wing, not even old style conservatives, it's the wingnut right.
And we have little ability to fight that, because we don't have the reach, because the media is mostly owned by a few people and that ownership is getting to be a smaller and smaller group by the day.
yellow dahlia
(5,331 posts)hamsterjill
(17,248 posts)Great post!!!
gab13by13
(31,757 posts)Well said, and concise.
hamsterjill
(17,248 posts)I believe in that concept very strongly. Appreciate your response.
yellow dahlia
(5,331 posts)Sympthsical
(10,909 posts)This is a (significantly) older space. The comfortable and familiar will prevail.
As an older Millennial, it blows my mind a little. That people can look at the past 40, 25, or 10 years and think to themselves, "We're doing amazing. Look at the state of the country. We need to keep doing what we're doing to keep this party going!"
Particularly when we discuss leadership.
At the end of the day, when it comes to politicians and the consultant class who've been around for decades, it's all full Bondi. "The stock market is at 50,000!"
When your portfolios are that good, and all your friends and family are on the train with you, it can be a difficult thing to voluntarily disembark. "The country can't be that bad, can it? Because we're doing great!"
Yes. You are.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)But yesterday a family friend, a 20 year old college sophomore and sweet kid, was picked up by ICE. Seeing his family and friends deal with this is heartbreaking.
We are all damaged by this disastrous administration and all the steps that led to it.
And I am aware that I am still feeling it second-hand, but those circles of damage are tightening fast.
Sympthsical
(10,909 posts)It's not a universal thing by any means. I worked in adult and aging for the state for over a decade, and that whole job was watching older people get economically shafted.
It's a difficult thing to describe, how people get attached to politicians and will eagerly keep them out of misplaced affection and perception that, "Not my kid! It's the other kid that's the problem. Everything my kid does is great!"
Just the gulf in perception between generations. The entire ramp up to the '24 election was wild. Basically everyone under 50 going, "Are you insane?" while most people over 50 were "Wheeeeee! This is a great idea! Don't be ageist!"
And then when exactly what you thought was going to happen does indeed happen, and the leadership whose job it is to avoid that kind of thing sat on their hands the whole time, we still sit at square one. "Not my favorite politician. All his decisions were good!"
I'm not sure you can even talk to people with that mindset.
betsuni
(28,923 posts)fall in line, bowing down, hive mind, cult. Why did Democrats allow/let/not stop all the bad things! Both sides both sides both sides both sides both sides.
QUASHERS! Help, help, I'm being repressed!
MorbidButterflyTat
(4,339 posts)Dems with different opinions are the cheerleaders! 
Lots of cheering going on here, good for you, OP!
SunImp
(2,667 posts)9:13 AM
and snark.
Not my idea of an adult conversation
Well I guess that wasn't true
betsuni
(28,923 posts)A: "Where are the Democrats? Why aren't they having press conferences? Dem leadership caved!"
B: "Schumer had a press conference yesterday and he and Jeffries were on the Sunday news programs this morning. Both of them said nothing has changed and it's up to Republicans."
This is B from the posse shutting down the conversation, preventing discussion, and mindlessly cheerleading Democrats. Apparently.
Yet we are supposed to take these grievances seriously. Come on, man.
bucolic_frolic
(54,613 posts)Money and elites drive society and are loyal to themselves. Democracy is not a natural state. It is a fluid state that depends on public opinion, legal structures including constitutions, prosperity, elites being okay with it. There were not insignificant minorities that supported the Axis during WWII. We ignored it, and failed to understand in the entire post-war era.
We need to drive political structure and stop catering to tax cut elites.
harumph
(3,168 posts)when they admit that strategically, the Heritage Foundation outplayed us. Just the truth. Their philosophy isn't like the
Brookings or the Center for American Progress, and other liberal think tanks. They're aggressive and keep their eyes on
the goal (however detestable we find it). As a counter balance to what they term "woke" universities, right wing groups nurtured
and funded their own. The right wing was smart enough to purchase and retain licenses for cheap AM radio stations back in the day enabling them to propagandize rural voters while at the same time gerrymandering the districts to dilute urban voting blocks.
Many many posters on this board decry homeschooling because they associate it with religious indoctrination . Well folks, when the public schools themselves in red states are indoctrinating students in white power politics, you may think differently. Why are there no analog progressive home schooling curriculum/packages to counter the religious based ones? There will come a time (maybe) when
progressives have a window of opportunity and the the wind at our backs to (maybe) pass a constitutional amendment to try and
remedy our antiquated version. We have to be ready to pull the trigger - and have something ready for which consensus has been sought and obtained - because those chances do not last. I guess the upshot of what I'm saying is that I see democrats too often
reacting instead of planning 10 years ahead which we should be. Basically, we need to get off our asses and commit to paper exactly how we want it to be and have that plan ready to jam through when (if) we get a chance.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)Well, it turns out they were true. And we have been reacting to them as if the world is a different thing than it is.
Our main problem has been our lack of understanding just how bad they are.
Well, we know now. And that should make a fundamental shift in OUR actions.
harumph
(3,168 posts)You know, the one where Gene Hackman as Lex Luther plans to purchase beachfront property in Nevada and then sink California.
I told her "Our lives are being ruined by billionaire men having the emotional maturity of 13 year olds." Just reading some of the ridiculous Epstein emails written by grown ass academics no less (the ones that lean more pathetic than horrific), is just flabbergasting. I try not to be drinking whenever someone opines about the US being a meritocracy.
yellow dahlia
(5,331 posts)Who knew? I commented the same thought.
yellow dahlia
(5,331 posts)Who knew we would be living the dystopian fiction that was prevalent in the literature of our formative years. We need to start thinking like this is our reality - because it is.
popsdenver
(1,968 posts)the perfect title for a book about the past 46+ years would be: WHILE THE NATION SLEPT
"Many" were walking down the jungle path, swatting at mosquitoes, and were oblivious to the herd of charging elephants.....
Pun Intended......
Anyone recall a large group called: "The Reagan Democrats" ????????
demmiblue
(39,521 posts)I have many of the finger-waggers on ignore, though, so I think I am missing a lot of the drama. 
Bettie
(19,498 posts)but it is growing again....I'm sure primary season (if we actually have elections anymore by that time) will see more growth.
dalton99a
(93,067 posts)focusing on general electability.
intheflow
(30,102 posts)I get so many jury summons here for people who don't understand the difference between constructive criticism and violating TOS. I don't get it for myself, but I imagine that some folks who live in less blue areas than I, or have more marginalized lives than I live, may feel the need to corral folks into a kind of lockstep because they feel the only way we break the R hold on the US is to be a united front. The thing is, we can be united under the Democratic umbrella and still understand the need to fix the umbrella when it develops a hole, because even though the umbrella worked fine in the past, a leaky umbrella umbrella serves no one very well.
popsdenver
(1,968 posts)but I think many here get totally frustrated with the Dem Party..........lack of direction by the majority of the 200+ Dem House and Senators, as well as the Leader???? of the Dem Party who ever that is at this point...........
I can't tell you when the last time I heard ANYTHING from our two Dem Senators and our Denver U.S. Rep..........
We need a whole lot more Dem firebrands like AOC, etc...........
SSJVegeta
(2,566 posts)
Martin Eden
(15,484 posts)In his recent interview with Brian Cohen. Democrats need to take the pulse of young people who can be energized to participate, especially around leaders who speak their language.
But don't leave anyone out, or push anyone away. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Elections are won by building coalitions.
Are we ourselves, in our online activity and interpersonal interactions, pushing people away? Not everyone who voted for Trump is irredeemable racist. Some voted for Obama. Many are misinformed, or persuadable swing voters.
We may feel temporary satisfaction from insulting them and expressing hope they suffer miserably for the catastrophe they have brought down on all of us. While there is truth that everyone who voted for Trump shares the blame, if we openly hate them they will hate us back -- and will vote against Democrats out of spite. Emotions often trump rational thought. This includes us, when we push people away who are capable of a change of heart or mind.
JustAnotherGen
(37,835 posts)They are an existential threat to the Black and Latino children in my family.
MLK was great - but its time to move on from that. It failed. All of jt.
Just one Black Woman in America but I'm certain I'm not alone. They HATE US. They've Bern allowed to get away with it since 1877. I'm done.
I want their souls crushed when this Regime ends. We can make exceptions to freedom of speech which outlaw Nazi and Confederate symbolism. Europe is fighting back better because they learned from their past. If we don't learn and implement - we will be right back here in 80 years.
leftstreet
(39,697 posts)gab13by13
(31,757 posts)We now have a partial shutdown, mainly to have DHS follow the law before they get any more money, to put it simply.
Am I allowed to say that I think that Democrats should have demanded more than they did?
Isn't a core tenet of negotiating, asking for more and then coming down for what was wanted?
Pressure is going to be put on Senate Democrats, I praise them for what they have done. (wanted them to do it back in March but that's water over the dam)
Stay strong Senator Schumer because your demands are not excessive, do not make concessions.
Today, do all Democrats agree that no more funding for DHS until the Democrats' demands are met?
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)pushback the last two times, they would not be holding the line right now.
A change was needed. It was discussed on social media. The leaders got the message. They're responding better this time.
Just_Vote_Dem
(3,582 posts)I think in the past our Democratic reps were able to do some negotiating with the Repubs, but now the Repubs have lost their fucking minds, so all bets are off.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)
AloeVera
(4,094 posts)Leaders need their own sense of outrage, no prompting needed.
dalton99a
(93,067 posts)lapucelle
(20,985 posts)The situation is very unlike March 2025 when Musk was still wielding his chainsaw and OMB director Russell Voss had removed all the contingency plans from the websites of every federal department and agency. (Even members of Congress were not privy to the plans.)
It is also unlike October 2025, when federal workers bore the brunt of the shutdown until a significant concession was won: the guarantee of SNAP funding through the remainder of the 2026 fiscal year, rather than merely until the end of January.
If folks on social media don't understand how things work, the best course of action is to keep them informed so that they can develop a more nuanced point of view.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)I'm happy to have the same "lack of nuance" as the vast majority of Senate Democrats. I guess they weren't kept informed.
lapucelle
(20,985 posts)I doubt very much that any senate Democrat confuses a full shutdown with a partial shutdown and the stakes as they existed in March (and even October-November) 2025 with the stakes that exist today.
But if the folks on social medial who are continually shaking their fists at and inveighing against Democrats credit the partial shutdown to their keyboarding, it wouldn't surprise me.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)It does on mine.
lapucelle
(20,985 posts)
samsingh
(18,354 posts)trump 2.0 did not need to happen
trump 1.0 did not need to happen
The gop has declared war on America and we need to respond as such. i like the new slogan 'when they go high we hit back'. That's all maga understands. Being nice, looking forward absolves them and makes them stronger.
We are sitting here depending that the epstein files be released. We had Congress and the Presidency, why didn't everything get released about Trump then?
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)When republicans ask why it didn't get released, people think they have a good point.
Our answer is that there was ongoing litigation, but that ended in 2021. Then we say there was an appeals process. But that appeals process has not stopped us Democrats from calling for its release since Cankles entered office while the appeals were ongoing, so why would it stop the release while we had the power? There must be more to it. If a mistake was made, fine, but let's know that.
I want to know how to shut down my maga brother when he asks that question.
samsingh
(18,354 posts)there was nothing stopping a Democratic President from declassifying a lot of specific material if not everything.
The mueller report was never released in full.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)There will be no "just move on and heal" about this. There will be no healing until we know what is going on with this global power network that is fed by child abuse.
samsingh
(18,354 posts)Escurumbele
(4,059 posts)johnnyplankton
(622 posts)usonian
(24,309 posts)What never changed is the hideous wealth disparity that is at the root of 99% or more of the problems.
People always wanted a fair shake, and nobody offered it.
And that is the "revolutionary" Democratic Party that people demand.
Use the 80/20 rule.
You can spend 80% of your time gaining another 20% of votes, or
Spend 20% of your time deciding "This is what people want TODAY" and get 80% more votes.
KEEP IT SIMPLE AND WIN.
Grim Chieftain
(1,479 posts)If they fail to do so they should be held to account. Much has been said about Fetterman lately, concerns have been raised, and rightly so.
To give a full pass to someone because they were elected with a "D" after their name is dangerous. Our party deserves better and deserves accountability.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)And elected officials should represent all the people, not just those who voted for them.
Grim Chieftain
(1,479 posts)SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)and how far they stray from those promises and why.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)People pointed them out to me. And sometimes I didn't make a mistake, I did the treatment that was most often efficacious, but it simply didn't work. So I analyzed the situation and changed my approach.
We as constituents have a responsibility to let our elected officials know when they are not moving us forward. Most (Fetterman, who knows what he's thinking?) want to do what we want them to do.
I have my reps on speed dial, from Senate to neighborhood association. My calls with them are never a fight, and they often get stuff done.
yellow dahlia
(5,331 posts)
CaptainTruth
(8,115 posts)...is the sane mature intelligent way to approach things.
So yes, I agree.
ihaveaquestion
(4,552 posts)Kid Berwyn
(23,813 posts)Despite a pledge from DNC Chair Ken Martin to release the post-election report, the committee announced Thursday it would not share it publicly.
https://www.politico.com/news/2025/12/18/dnc-kills-its-own-public-2024-autopsy-00697403
Bet David Hogg would've voted to release the autopsy results.
yellow dahlia
(5,331 posts)
Joinfortmill
(20,622 posts)FoxNewsSucks
(11,605 posts)
Bluetus
(2,544 posts)But the nature of the beast is that Dems really love to think of themselves as free agents, so we can't ever agree on some pasic promises that every Democrat is committed to. We never have anything like Gingrich's Contract with America or the infamous Project 2025. Without an affirmative agenda shared proudly by the Party, we are left with little more than "Vote for Dems because we aren't as bad as Republicans."
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)will reverse on day one, and the American people (not just Democrats) REALLY want those things.
Bluetus
(2,544 posts)Show me any candidate that has a clear 5-point plan (or 10 points, if you prefer). I'm not talking about some 300 page white paper written by some contractor, full of equivocations and contingencies. I'm talking about, "If Democrats are elected, we promise to put top priority on these 5 things."
And I'm not talking generalizations like "affordability", "national security", "quality of life". I'm talking about real, tangible specific actions. What are Democrats going to do, specifically, if we give them power once again? Tell me 5 things that will be different in my life if Democrats are in control.
What, specifically, are they committed to doing about the billionaires and the abuse of the economic power they hold? What, specifically, are they going to do to restore constitutional rule so the next Republicans can't just break it as easily as Trump did. What, specifically , are they going to do about a SCOTUS that has obviously been corrupted, and a system that allows all these extreme RWres to be on the court? (If the Justices were nominated by Presidents who came to office with the most votes, the only RWer on the court would by Thomas (appointed by GHW Bush, who did get a majority. The other 5 RW extremists were all nominated by Presidents who took office LOSING the popular vote.)
Tell us specifically what will be done about corporations off shoring jobs and profits and paying no taxes here? Tell us how the EPA and CDC will be put back together in a sustainable way.
Etc.
MorbidButterflyTat
(4,339 posts)"Why did we do thing X, did it hurt us, and how can we do differently in the future?"
I must have missed them.
What I've seen are variations of "milquetoast Merrick," Schumer's sternly worded letters, old Dems don't want change, why did Dems let MAGAts get away with whatever, why don't Dems do this, why don't Dems do that, why don't Dems do what I want? Dems cave, Schumer caves, Jeffries dares mention his faith how dare he? Primary! Primary! Primary!
Having an opinion that isn't yours is not quashing your "conversations."
"That's what adults do..." Like call others with opinions that aren't yours the "posse"?
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)betsuni
(28,923 posts)cave, fold, throw in the towel, weak, spineless, don't meet the moment, out-of-touch, complicit, don't fight, remain silent, don't speak out, where are the Democrats, sit on their hands, do nothing, bring a butter knife to a gun fight, scared, failed leadership -- so many more (and that's just the polite stuff)!
"Why did we do thing X, did it hurt us, and how ... 
The absud idea that the reason people don't vote or vote for Republicans or third party is that Democrats are somehow doing or not doing horrible things. Like, because the Democratic nominee had too many celebrities at her rallies, or didn't say the just the right thing on "The View," or would've won if she just had a couple more rallies in Wisconsin.
c-rational
(3,167 posts)our opponent. Their long-term strategy starting with the Powell Memo, the money their side has, and their absolute ruthlessness which instilled fear in us as intended. We have a major disadvantage in the media, and our openness gets portrayed poorly. Our message per our platform is good. We have good candidates, but we fail to get our message across. Buying up several thousand raido stations and getting our own cable show would help.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)Bettie
(19,498 posts)We refer to them as "our friends across the aisle"....but they aren't our friends.
They never have been.
yellow dahlia
(5,331 posts)I recall after the last election Earl G suggested the rules regarding criticizing Dems could be a little looser. I think he framed it as we have problems to solve. I hope I am remembering correctly. I was relatively new to DU at the time.
We have all been living the same nightmare now, since November 2024. My personal opinion is we are in a CRISIS! We are in a Constitutional crisis. Our Democracy is on the brink. This is not the usual political dilemma(s). We need to figure out how to save Democracy. We need to figure out how to get out of this Constitutional crisis. We need all hands on deck. We need all ideas on deck. We need to adopt a solution oriented paradigm on steroids.
Should we really have to worry about stepping on peoples' "old school" sensibilities? As long as we offer analysis and critique without engaging in "low blows", shouldn't the discussion be welcomed, rather than quashed? IMHO
Thanks for the great OP, S. And I appreciate the discussion it generated.
PeaceWave
(2,918 posts)hamsterjill
(17,248 posts)Look, if Democrats make a mistake, cannot admit their mistakes, talk about them, and figure out avenues to correct a course and move forward, how would we ever get ANYWHERE? Not every action is a mistake. There are many, many Democratic leaders who are to be respected and supported.
But when there is one or some or a few that are headed in a direction that I (or anyone) thinks isn't the right thing, I don't understand NOT being able to speak up and say so. Because THAT is free speech.
Don't talk to me about "working harder". Come on down to Texas and let me show you what working your ass off for TWENTY PLUS YEARS looks like when the whole system is rigged against you and isn't fair. Yes, Texas is finally seeing some strides and I am hopeful for the midterms. But I will not lose sight of the reality that it may very well be that nothing changes because there are still plenty of people down here who hate Democrats and refuse to listen to anything that a Democrat may have to offer. That is because they've been brainwashed for forty plus years.
harumph
(3,168 posts)Much of it is because of the outsized role conservative evangelicals have on the non-urban population.
Whole communities outside the major urban centers revolve around churches - mega or otherwise. I've met presumably educated
and monied Texans (very monied) that hold to the most absurd religious tenets. People have prayer groups in their McMansions.
They drink expensive Napa Valley varietals and drive new BMWs. Combine the Righteous Gemstones and Madmen and
you'll have some idea. Interestingly, due to the diversity and some self selection, the first generation suburbs around Dallas, for example, lean pretty blue. However, you get to places like Frisco and Southlake - and it's like wtf? The notion that some non-Texans have about MAGA and fellow travelers being barefoot and toothless is wrong. Moreover, these folks are politically engaged and have surplus $ to promote their republican fantasies.
So, point being, I hear you that the hurdles seem intractable and it's easy for some not to see the complexity involved in fighting the good fight.
hamsterjill
(17,248 posts)You understand the assignment!!! LOL
The "rich" ones, however in my opinion, KNOW somewhere in their minds, hearts and souls that they are not following their churches. Yet, they grab some scripture, read it and it just magically "substantiates" what they believe. So they spout it to all around them and one by one, they all decide that "well if HE/SHE feels that way, then that's gotta be right". The rich ones KNOW that their way of life would be threatened if the truth were really known. It's all one big, secret amongst a big, secret society.
The "barefoot and toothless" ones, are, in my opinion, the easily led ones, less educated, and are desirous of gaining the life that the rich ones flaunt but don't believe that they have the "right" to have that. They have been made to believe that the rich ones deserve what they have because of hard work and privilege. The others can certainly aspire to attain such grandeur, but are told it takes hard work and sacrifice. That gives many of them the idea of "well, I'll never be rich - so I'll just get by". They have no real drive and they are jealous and covet what anyone who doesn't fall into their category may have or attain. They love to bring others down to their level because that reaffirms to them that no one can really get out of the class he/she is born into. How dare someone even try!!!
Yours is a great post, and I appreciate that you understand. Thank you.
Quiet Em
(2,670 posts)was that we nominated two exceptional candidates, but because those exceptional candidates were women a large chunk of the electorate voted for the con atist because they could not handle a woman being Predident of the United States.
If the answer to that is only nominating white men, and not discussing any issue at all unless it appeals to white men, well, that doesn't feel like a winning or foreward moving strategy at all.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)I don't know how long it will take to make it up.
I had assumed I would see a woman President before I die. Now I'm not so sure. Now I'm putting my efforts into just trying to get them to stop killing us.
Bettie
(19,498 posts)I don't think we will see a woman as president in my lifetime.
Misogyny is the most prevalent bias in this country and we don't seem to be able to change that.
gulliver
(13,837 posts)Our party needs to enforce recognition and respect of adult behavior principles like free speech and manners. Emotions need to drive thought, not enslave or replace it. That's true of individuals and groups.
Right now, honestly, we are mainly suffering from laziness and fear. The laziness produces neglect and self-indulgence. The fear keeps us from correcting ourselves.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)gulliver
(13,837 posts)KPN
(17,235 posts)SunImp
(2,667 posts)Fortunately only a few bad faith posters got triggered by what you wrote & most are taking this issue seriously.
canetoad
(20,497 posts)It needs to be said. I don't have skin in the game but it's plain that something is badly wrong in the US. My fervent hope is that Democrats can find a way to prevail and consign trump to the garbage pile of history.
Torchlight
(6,593 posts)because growth and effective leadership depend on self-reflection, not reflexive defense.
I think more often than not, members in good-faith are clear about the difference between objective critique as you reference and the kind of performative outrage that’s more chum in the water easily ignored or deleted than serious, measured examination.
(and a K&R for opening an honest dialogue that's been at times, surprising to read!)
Melon
(1,216 posts)I see it coming with candidates supported here. We pick a proven losing path and try it again repeatedly until we’ve lost enough times to drive the lesson home. It’s happened here in Texas and it’s happened in our presidential elections.
I’m not likely to donate money again after the last presidential run and what I consider rampant waste of my donations. I am likely to donate time.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)And in what race?
Melon
(1,216 posts)SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)And what is he doing wrong?
Melon
(1,216 posts)" It’s happened here in Texas and it’s happened in our presidential elections."
"Happened" being the past tense.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)do wrong?
Melon
(1,216 posts)But conceptually it would have been about running a different candidate for whatever the topic was about prior to losing.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)Talarico or Crockett?
Melon
(1,216 posts)I’ve already commented that in a thread on that topic. Not on this topic. Whatever side quest you are on is very tiresome.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)So who should run in Texas? Talarico or Crockett?
Melon
(1,216 posts)That’s really the answer. You aren’t in charge of anything so you want to interject and control.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)Which is why I asked the question. So who is the better candidate in Texas? Talarico or Crockett?
Melon
(1,216 posts)Asking for information you have no entitlement too and being offered that information are too different things. I don’t like your tone of questioning so go….look it up.
SocialDemocrat61
(7,264 posts)since you brought Texas up. But if you don't have an snswer, then so be it.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)all my donations are going there. I don't have to make any decisions
W_HAMILTON
(10,253 posts)And it's WELL past time it receive push back -- after all, if we had pushed back more against bullshit criticism, we probably wouldn't even be in the current state we're in. Oh, what a quaint time it was when email usage and paid speeches were """our""" biggest criticisms...
PS - When Republicans and Russians colluded to get Trump elected, they damn sure didn't pretend to be loyal Democrats fiercely defending the Democratic Party -- the exact opposite, actually!
Orrex
(66,870 posts)Some have considered any criticism of Garland to be "bullshit" when put forth by fellow DUers. I've directly observed this for years.
Interestingly, when those same criticisms are voiced by elected Democrats (e.g. Ted Lieu), the people crying "bullshit" tend suddenly to fall silent.
It's almost as if the criticism isn't bullshit, but it's dismissed as such when it displeases the gatekeepers.
Ninga
(9,005 posts)Democrats have been snookered by their own inability to read how powerful and all consuming social media has become in most people’s lives.
Democrats have to find a way to do a run a round to the lies told by paid troll podcasters and On-lines trolls and Fox Snooze.
Our values have been used by maga as weapons to bludgeon our messages our candidates and even our voters.
I’m sorry If all of this has been said previously in this thread
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)in Obama's first campaign. And then it slipped away from us. I always return to a statistic I read that about 80% of the misinformation that went around the net in 2016 originated with 80 bot accounts. Imagine how much truth we could spread with 80 bot accounts.
oldmanlynn
(803 posts)It would be suicidal to bring any of this up now.
Melon
(1,216 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 17, 2026, 05:38 PM - Edit history (1)
When is the right time?
Since the last list election any criticism is met with a “right wing talking points” warning. It’s very frustrating. If someone voices an opinion on the direction of a candidate that you feel is a wrong direction for the party, voicing opposition is at risk of your account. Meanwhile the path of wrong choice is cheerleaded ahead until it’s too late to make change, or until our own members or independents make a different voting decision.
oldmanlynn
(803 posts)But don’t do it months before a midterm election that’s suicidal that’s the circular firing squad
Orrex
(66,870 posts)Orrex: I wish that Schumer would have the toilet paper go over the roll.
Cheerleader: Bashing Democrats is exactly how we got into this mess.
In short, any criticism, however mild or well-reasoned or solidly justified, is characterized as "bashing," with the implication that the poster is violating the TOS.
If we're not permitted to voice our dissatisfaction with elected Democrats and their leaders, then I see little to distinguish ourselves from the drooling red-hat KKKult.
EdmondDantes_
(1,589 posts)It's not honest about the level of vitriol (which goes both ways, but you're arguing for one side) in the opinions, and such a non-issue example where there's no possible harm from just doing it the way you want.
Let's compare that to people saying voting to end the shutdown was killing the ACA and traitors to the party, and with absolute certainty that if we just kept holding out that we would have gotten the ACA subsidies extended.
Look at the way anyone disagreeing in this thread is talked about "cheerleaders" "finger waggers". Disagreeing is labeled as inherently trying to shut down discussion (as if saying that isn't trying to dismiss discussion that isn't agreement).
None of this is to say that the same doesn't happen in reverse because it obviously does. But to make progress, both sides need to engage in good faith with each other. Outside of some trolls nobody here is in favor of Republicans. We disagree on tactics and strategies, but not the larger goals. We all should try harder to remember that.
Orrex
(66,870 posts)Orrex: Garland appears to be slow-walking the investigation.
Cheerleaders: Maybe you should call Biden and tell him what a terrible choice he made. I suppose you have all the facts and evidence at your disposal to let you make that claim? A true Democrat wouldn't talk that way.
EdmondDantes_
(1,589 posts)I think it's probably because you're looking for a fight. Maybe I'm wrong, but that you can't even acknowledge that you're and others are doing the same things you accuse others of, isn't really suggestive that this is an open dialogue, and instead is just so much ranting without any assumption of good faith from the other side of a group of people who all collectively want Democrats to win.
I freely admit I could be wrong, but nobody here has presented evidence, instead relying mostly on name calling.
Orrex
(66,870 posts)Evidence was on display prior to that date, but also more recently, for those with eyes willing to see. I myself have been accused many times of the exact things that I cited.
My representation of the cheerleaders is indeed a caricature, but it's not inaccurate.
And as for "name-calling?" Excuse me if I'm not interested in a both-sides-do-it argument. I call out the cheerleaders because they belittle and insult and ridicule and gaslight DUers who don't adhere to the cheerleaders' approved message.
Their goal is to suppress alternative viewpoints through mockery. My goal is to call them out for their tactics.
Don't mistake one for the other.
EdmondDantes_
(1,589 posts)Given you already falsely accused me of thinking I have all the facts, maybe you should at least be willing to consider that you're not so different than those you oppose. But I suspect you won't because that requires actual introspection and a willingness to consider that you might not be 100% correct and those who disagree with you might not be the caricature you admit you reduce them to. Keep clinging to your side and they'll keep clinging to theirs and the infighting will just continue to get worse.
Orrex
(66,870 posts)If you feel that the cheerleaders and I are equally wrong-headed, then perhaps you should take it up with them. I'm sure that they'd prove as receptive to a differing viewpoint as they have in the past.
EdmondDantes_
(1,589 posts)"I suppose you have all the facts and evidence at your disposal to let you make that claim? A true Democrat wouldn't talk that way."
That's an accusation and ignored what I said in the first place. You're doing the exact thing I said you were doing and failing to acknowledge it.
Orrex
(66,870 posts)My post explicitly attributed that statement to unnamed “Cheerleaders.” You conveniently omitted that attribution for some reason.
If you’re applying that label to yourself specifically so that you can make yourself the subject of a comment, well, that’s on you.
EdmondDantes_
(1,589 posts)But I'm done with this. As I've said, you aren't arguing in good faith because you can't consider that you're doing the same thing you accuse others of. Good luck appealing to anyone who isn't already in your choir. That's not exactly working out so well for us lately.
betsuni
(28,923 posts)Anyone on the right side of history and progressive agrees, so disagreeing doesn't mean having another opinion or making a mistake, they're THEM (posse swarm cheerleaders both sides), the enemy out to get and silence innocent victims speaking truth to power (the smartest in the room of blind loyalist sheep (the "brainless loyalists" who search for facts before bashing Democrats as spineless corrupt cavers throwing towels in cahoots with Republicans without a shred of evidence except emotion)).
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)Maybe you should call Biden and tell him what a terrible choice he made. I suppose you have all the facts and evidence at your disposal to let you make that claim? A true Democrat wouldn't talk that way
is all a quote of what Orrex was told when he said Garland was slow walking.
Your post reads as if you thought part of the quote was aimed from him at you. I don't that's the case. It's just an accurate restating of the comments that were constantly thrown at those if us who criticized Garland.
Mblaze
(949 posts)Is because we supported freedom. Freedom for our corporations, businesses, universities and municipalities to practice diversity, equity and inclusion. We stand for freedom for our gay neighbors, Freedom for those who want to transition. Freedom for women to manage their own reproduction. Freedom against authoritarianism. Freedom to study the truth of Americas treatment of blacks, native Americans and other minorities throughout our history. Freedom to read the books we wish to read. Freedom of and from religion. Republicans label that "identity politics" and hate it but those "identities" obviously need the support of government.
That stance for freedom is hard to consider a "mistake" that should be "avoided".
LudwigPastorius
(14,430 posts)Instead of just generally chastising everyone here about the difference between dissent and smack talk, how about you make those arguments in the individual posts that you think might get alerted.
iemanja
(57,665 posts)And very well.
Scrivener7
(59,001 posts)
Progressive dog
(7,593 posts)There are presently only two parties that have a chance of winning Federal elections.Could Democrats have better candidates? IMO probably, but I'm just one voter amongst millions.
I know I'm not going to get the chance to change the party's direction by posting my disagreements on DU. I suggest you work to get Democrats that you are more comfortable with elected. In the meantime, with Trumpites controlling all branches of government, I am going to refrain from criticizing elected Democrats for not accomplishing things that are impossible at this time.
iemanja
(57,665 posts)as a US citizen. That means I have a right to criticize and contact my representatives to let them know about my views. I don’t believe my role is to bend the knee to representatives whose job it is to represent me, not the other way around. I choose to participate actively in democracy. This is not a monarchy, as much as the GOP wants it to be. Without active participation, we sacrifice our rights.
Progressive dog
(7,593 posts)But you seem to want to do it where it is neither productive or appropriate.
Zelda_Orchid
(60 posts)Defeat the fascists first. Plenty of time later to worry about what color socks other factions of "United We Stand" are wearing.
BannonsLiver
(20,330 posts) 
Ol Janx Spirit
(862 posts)...this topic is.
It is an important conversation to have.
A quick look at the replies also reveals how fraught a topic it is.
But in any situation, the ability to analyze one's own culpability in the outcome is essential to avoiding a repeat of the same or a similar situation in the future. That's just a basic part of human nature. Actually, even more basic lifeforms can make the connection between what they did and the outcome of those actions.
As a robust community of ideas and opinions, I truly hope we can find ways to examine ourselves while we work hard to fight off the tide of fascism that is still on the rise. If we fail to do that we may very well find ourselves back here again....
Ilikepurple
(508 posts)I don’t quite have the naive trust in the marketplace of ideas that I had when I was younger, but I still hold strong to the idea that we must often rely on the product of the engagement of diverse viewpoints. I think the Democratic Party is stronger when its factions engage each other through the exchange of viewpoints, ideas, and argumentation. I feel less so when this exchange mainly consists of rhetoric that is strategically or lazily used to replace reason or evidence. Professionally, I can’t imagine conducting a meeting or anything strategical without giving some credence to the various strategies or opinions about the topics to be discussed. Sometimes this devolves into arguing distracting minutiae or members advocating their strategy at the expense of a fair discussion of others’. I prefer a collaborative rather than adversarial approach to most problem solving. I wish I had the intuition to recognize all my mistaken ideas, but for this I’ve had to depend on both the passage of time and the input of others. Most of my comments here at DU are made in hopes that I can help keep space open for the various views on the particular actions and strategies of our representatives. My thought is that there must be reasons behind these various views and it is the reasons not the views that are constructive to forming my personal views.
Raine
(31,130 posts)poozwah
(402 posts)“Obviously we have not been effective in preventing the mess we find ourselves in. “
we would have been much more effective had we made strict campaign financing a major issue, but this is ignored because we are taking money from the same evil bastards who are at the root of our democracy’s ills. the wealthy are destroying this nation. they are not using violence. they are using vilence.